METEONORM DATA

Applying the PH standard

Re: METEONORM DATA

Postby Ryan Abendroth on Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:46 pm

Steve,

Yes you are correct. The last three columns only impact the thermal envelope requirements if you want to reduce the heating or cooling load to a specified level. However, the results will also correspond to less space heating demand. As far as utilizing other cities data, it should work since you are just using it to size the system. However, be aware that radiation factors into that design temperature and can have an effect based on how much sun there is even if the temperatures are the same.

David,
Meteonorm does allow you to print the data in PHPP format so that you can have a copy. So you can't save it, but you can print it as a Microsoft document to view later.
Ryan Abendroth
PHIUS
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Re: METEONORM DATA

Postby Kat on Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:15 pm

Hi everybody,

I like to clarify and shed some light on the climate data discussion and dilemma.

Currently there are two PHPP versions available, one in SI units and one in IP units.

The missing data in question, the heating and cooling load data is only necessary to size the mechanical system. It does not effect the design of the envelope or the annual heating demand. The system sizing can be done using conventional sizing methods in addition to PHPP, the peak loads are not necessary to calculate a building's envelope to meet the Passive House Standard.

Climate data necessary to calculate the heating and cooling demand, primary energy demand for a project to meet Passive House Standard can be found here:

TMY3 (newer and more accurate than TMY2) and TMY2 data sets of weather data for US cities
http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/ ... /cname=USA

Meteonorm can be found here:
http://www.meteonorm.com/pages/en/meteonorm.php
Complete climate data sets of cities worldwide are available here. The benefit of using meteonorm is, if your city exists in its data base, that it already has a PHPP specific output option. You will obtain a climate data set that is already configured to fit the PHPP climate data template. Meteonorm offers a 10 day free trial version. The output is in metric and needs to be converted into IP units for use with the PHPP US version.
Some meteonorm data sets contain heat and cooling load data. If you have nothing but this data available to you, you can use it with caution. It is better than having no data at all. But external sizing of the mechanical system is recommended as those heating and cooling load data sets living in the last three columns of the PHPP climate data entry cells, in some cases have been found to be very inaccurate. Ryan described the reason for that in one of his posts.

So, what can we do then if there is only inaccurate or no heating and cooling load data currently available for the US? Does this missing piece take away from the effectiveness and usability as a modeling tool? This is a very valid and fair question.

As of right now, there are a few cities in the US, about 25 or so, that we have calculated accurate heating and cooling data for. Those are included in the PHPP US version and marked with an asterisk next to the city name. Those data sets can be used for the envelope design as well as for the sizing of the mechanical system. The PHPP metric version is supplemented by a folder containing the same cities in metric. Those sets still have to be entered by the user into the metric version. The next updated version will have those sets pre-entered in the metric PHPP file.

If you are not calculating in or near any of those cities or in a distinctly different micro climate close to one of them, then the following options can be pursued:

1. Use a climate data set located near you that does have the correct data and choose it to be on the safe side (i.e. colder in a heating climate).
2. a) Get meteonorm data for your city and discard heating and cooling load data if it exists
or b) Obtain your city data from the TMY3 data set on the above mentioned website
or c) If you cannot get any climate data for your location from any of those options find a city in PHPP pre-entered climate data that has similar temperatures and solar radiation annually, find measured monthly average temperatures for your specific city (available on weather.com or other sources). Use the annual data from the similar file except that you adjust the monthly average temperatures to the ones you found on the web.

Then, find a city that contains peak data that has comparable solar radiation/design temperatures to your climate. Create a user data file in the yellow cells in the climate data sheet, assemble the annual climate data and the heating and cooling load data there and then pull it up into the green cells by selecting your user data in the drop down menu.

3. PHIUS is providing accurate heating and cooling load data calculations for projects on a fee basis ($600) with the understanding that the generated set will be made available for use on the specific project as well as for use by the entire PHPP user community. This way we can collaboratively build a growing data base for US cities. We're considering other methods of more affordably providing support here.

We were told by Juergen Schnieders from the PHI that meteonorm is currently being reworked to address the shortcomings in regards to the peak loads. The new accurate version is supposed to be available by 2010. So, hopefully we will only have to bridge this gap for another half year or so.
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Re: METEONORM DATA

Postby John Semmelhack on Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:53 am

Kat - I'm posting this question again (this time in the Meteonorm topic). As I understand it, the climate data sets in PHPP 2007 (U.S.) with an asterisk should be accurate for calculating peak/design heating and cooling loads. However, as I've noted below, the Washington D.C. cooling load data seems inaccurate to me, at least when compared to the ASHRAE convention for sizing cooling systems.

"Is anyone else having issues with the climate data for cooling loads from the PHPP 2007 (U.S.) data sets? I'm working on a project using the Washington D.C. climate data. PHPP lists the ambient air peak/design temperature at 84(F). ASHRAE lists the 1% peak/design cooling temperature for Washington D.C. at 92(F). Seems to me this would underestimate my transmission heat gains (for peak/design cooling load calculation) by more than half."
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Re: METEONORM DATA

Postby Kat on Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:03 am

Hi John,

Both values actually, heat and cooling peak loads in PHPP deviate from standard design temperatures. The peak loads for PHPP are calculated in a way so that they account for the temperature swing delay in super insulated buildings. It is assumed that the building has the capability to store loads in its mass. Not so well insulated houses get hot and cold much faster. Superinsulated buildings do react much slower towards brief extreme temperature periods, hot or cold, keeping peak loads lower compared to not well insulated buildings.

Kat
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Re: METEONORM DATA

Postby khammerbe on Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:58 pm

Climate data necessary to calculate the heating and cooling demand, primary energy demand for a project to meet Passive House Standard can be found here:

TMY3 (newer and more accurate than TMY2) and TMY2 data sets of weather data for US cities
http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/ ... /cname=USA


Hey all,
I've downloaded my TMY3 weather data and I've looked through most of the data in the .stat, .ddy, and .epw files. However, I can't find the information that is required in the heating and cooling load sections. Does anyone know where to look exactly?

The other problem may not be that I don't know WHERE to look, but I don't know WHAT I'm looking for. As I understand it, "Heating Load: Weather 1" is the coldest design day with a clear sky and "Heating Load: Weather 2" is the coldest design day with cloud cover. I can find the Winter design days in the .DDY file, but only for clear days. Also, the closest I've come to finding irradiation data is a field called: "Average Hourly Statistics for Direct Normal Solar Radiation" This doesn't help on so many levels I won't enumerate them here.

Third potential problem, I'm using Excel to open these as comma delimited files and don't have a program that will open them directly.

Thanks,
Kris
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Re: METEONORM DATA

Postby Ryan Abendroth on Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:21 pm

jessethompson wrote:My understanding is that Heating Load and Cooling Load are factors that have to be calculated for each climate location by PHI or PHIUS using specialized calculations, and these calcs have only been done for a few locations so far in the US.


Kris,
As stated earlier only the German PHI and PHIUS can calculate heating and cooling loads from data sets. This is because the data is calculated by a dynamic simulation which is quite complex to do. Also in an earlier post, it explained that PHIUS is using the German program for this dynamic simulation using energy plus data sets. Data sets without accurate heating and cooling load can usually be found in Meteonorm. These include radiation levels, ambient, ground, and sky temperatures. However, at this time, Meteonorm heating and cooling loads are questionable at best (though some seem to be accurate). Hence the need for the PHI dynamic simulation.
Ryan Abendroth
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Re: METEONORM DATA

Postby khammerbe on Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:39 pm

Ryan,
I am aware of that option. It just happens I'm shy the $600. Don't get me wrong, dynamic simulation sounds really impressive, but I still don't have the cash.

Kat listed a couple of other options in her post:
If you are not calculating in or near any of those cities or in a distinctly different micro climate close to one of them, then the following options can be pursued:

1. Use a climate data set located near you that does have the correct data and choose it to be on the safe side (i.e. colder in a heating climate).


Not a great option for me, as the nearest are all in other states.

2. a) Get meteonorm data for your city and discard heating and cooling load data if it exists
or b) Obtain your city data from the TMY3 data set on the above mentioned website
or c) If you cannot get any climate data for your location from any of those options find a city in PHPP pre-entered climate data that has similar temperatures and solar radiation annually, find measured monthly average temperatures for your specific city (available on weather.com or other sources). Use the annual data from the similar file except that you adjust the monthly average temperatures to the ones you found on the web.

Then, find a city that contains peak data that has comparable solar radiation/design temperatures to your climate. Create a user data file in the yellow cells in the climate data sheet, assemble the annual climate data and the heating and cooling load data there and then pull it up into the green cells by selecting your user data in the drop down menu.


I'm interested in option 2, hence my questions about the TMY3 data sets.
EDIT: I see what Kat was getting at now. Using the Peak Loading data from a nearby climate but using the monthly values from the web (or in my case, from the "unverified" data set in PHPP).

But this leads me to another question. If I am to err on the side of Peak Heating when choosing a nearby climate won't that reduce the Peak Cooling? If I'm already mixing and matching, shouldn't I just take Peak Cooling data from the closest warmer climate?
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Re: METEONORM DATA

Postby DMcEvers on Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:14 pm

Kris and all,

I ran some numbers quite a while back and found a home built to Passive Standards will require about .6 Btu's per square foot per heating degree day. This squares with my superinsulation experience when factoring in the higher R-values and lower infiltration for PH.

I think you can use Heating Degree Days for your area as a check against whatever program you are using to determine peak heating loads. By all means use PHPP to the full extent as it is designed specific to very low energy homes, but the simple Btu/sf/hdd will give you a ballpark number for daily heating energy requirements, divide this by 24 hours for the peak hourly load.

As an example, a 2,000 sf home in Minneapolis built to PH standards will use .6 Btu's per sf or 1,200 Btu's per degree F. The design temperature is -16 or 81F when subtracted from 65 degrees, so the daily heating requirements for this home at the design temperature is 97,200 Btu's. Divide by 24 hours for the hourly heating load at the design temp., 4,050 Btu's per hour peak heating load.

Doug
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Re: METEONORM DATA

Postby JesseThomas on Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:42 pm

Can we convert the TMY3 hourly radiation data to monthly data for PHPP? Or is this part of the service that PHIUS offers for accurate proximate climate data?

What I'm getting at here is that I don't like the Meteonorm data I'm getting. The interpolated radiation data is all from Seattle. And though I'm 40 miles away, it rains almost half as much here in Port Townsed. It's true. I've got TMY3 data from close by and it looks good. Getting the right data may be the key to certification in the case of my current project. What can I do?
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Re: METEONORM DATA

Postby sjohnston on Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:12 pm

Kat,
I'm looking for affirmation that the TMY3 data is the most accurate.
I have followed your suggestion and loaded the TMY3 avg. monthly temperature and dew point data for my area into the User Data section. I kept METEONORMS solar radiation data and sky temp data since I could not find that specific data in TMY3. I then put in the closest heating and cooling load data from another city that has similar solar radiation and HDD/CDD days.
The avg. monthly temperature data in TMY3 is higher than the METEONORM data and the NOAA data that I found at their site. METEONORM and NOAA temps. are relatively close to each other.
Is TMY3 data the preferred data?

Steve
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